Making The World Safe For Low Desire
All the recent celebration in smart sex-activist circles about the FDA refusal to approve the proposed Flibanserin drug for increasing female desire has left rather a sour taste in my mouth. But there isn’t a lot I can say about it, because most of the celebration is coming from people who are smarter and better informed than me on these sorts of issues. I was just developing a general sense that folks were not so much against the drug itself as they were opposed to the idea of a drug for female desire. And at that, my anarchist soul revolts. Don’t like that idea? Don’t take the fuckin’ drug. No pun intended.
Picking at random one of the celebrants, Emily Nakoski, whose smartness I revere and who has surely forgotten more about sexuality than I may ever hope to learn, I’ll post the most specific criticism I saw her make of the drug itself:
The drug, now seeking FDA approval, is basically an antidepressant that you take every day. Would you take a pill every day for 6 months in order to have a 15% chance of experiencing “meaningful improvement” in your level of sexual desire? And then do you have to take it for the rest of your life?
I’m pretty sure Emily intends those questions to be rhetorical, and expects that the answers should be negative. I hope and trust she’ll correct me if I’m wrong. Meanwhile, I forge onward. Remember I’m an anarchist, without much use for the FDA drug approval process, because I believe individuals are capable of making informed medical decisions for themselves, in consultation with their medical professional of choice. In light of that, allow me to tease out the arguments against the drug that I think Emily has encapsulated in that one statement plus two rhetorical questions:
- It’s some heavy shit to be taking;
- It takes a long time to find out if it’s working;
- The chance of it working is pretty low;
- If it works, you’ll need to be taking that heavy shit for as long as you want the benefits.
What I don’t see in that is any reasons to have a federal agency declare a priori that nobody ought to get the right to decide for themselves whether those costs outweigh the potential benefits.
But I’m just a schmoe with a blog. Hence my interest in seeing Marty Klein’s post this morning: Flibanserin Defeated; What Is Accomplished?
Marty writes:
The big news in the world of sex is that Flibanserin, the drug that’s supposed to increase desire in some pre-menopausal women, has been rejected by the federal Food & Drug Administration (FDA).
A group of activists is taking credit for pointing out the drug’s side effects, limited efficacy, and big-ticket marketing campaign. They also criticize the medicalization of female sexuality, accusing drug maker Boehringer-Ingelheim (B-I) of creating a disease where none exists.
Despite clear evidence that the lobbying had no serious impact on the FDA process, these activists are now celebrating, having made the world safe for, um, low desire.
But what’s really been accomplished?
* The further public confusion of desire and arousal. People everywhere are referring to “pink Viagra,” which is a fundamental error.
Viagra addresses arousal, not desire. Flibanserin addresses desire (albeit imperfectly), not arousal.
* Reinforcing the myth that women’s sexuality, especially desire, is more complicated than men’s.
No, no, no. Eroticism in adults is complicated, and it insults both genders to suggest that only women have emotions around sexuality. Professionals don’t understand why men don’t desire women they love any more than we understand why women don’t desire men they love.
Most men are not heartless machines eager to screw anything with a heartbeat, any more than most women are frigid creatures who only acquiesce to sex out of duty.
* Denigrating the idea that some women (and their relationships) really do suffer from low sexual desire even when the emotional and relational conditions are supportive.
It’s accurate, of course, to say that there isn’t a single level of desire that’s “normal.” But women who experience dramatic drops in their desire know there’s something wrong. And isn’t it obvious that one definition of “healthy adult” is the experience of sexual desire when the conditions are right?
* Knocking down the straw man that “women’s sexuality is so simple it can be fixed with a pill.”
C’mon, no one–certainly not the drug company–has suggested this. Flibanserin is proposed for women whose reduced desire can’t be explained by a dozen other factors, including well-known desire killers such as ambivalence about the relationship, sexual trauma, and husbands who don’t bathe.
I’m not the only one, it seems, who thinks the activist-celebrants were arguing against something other than the pill in question.
But the ranty part of Marty Klein’s article is where things really start to get good:
There’s something unseemly about activists–self-described feminists, sexual health advocates, whatever–working so hard to prevent a drug from coming to market because its creators might manipulate and confuse possible consumers.
I didn’t hear much about this when Viagra was cooking (actually, I wrote one of the few cautionary articles about this back in 1998). I still don’t hear much about how Viagra exploits people’s over-emphasis on erection as a prerequisite to enjoyable sex. Is that sexism?
And I don’t like the idea that we have to protect women from being told by a drug company that their sexuality is problematic. Women–people–are told every day that their sexuality is problematic, by beer commercials, Cosmo magazine, Dr. Phil, and priests.
Millions of women (and their partners) know their lack of sexual desire causes suffering. Whether taking a drug is the best treatment for any woman isn’t the point. Dismissing B-I’s drug and its marketing as “disease mongering” is terribly disrespectful to the many women who struggle with low desire.
The vociferous righteousness about this drug is terribly reminiscent of the hysteria over other sex-related drugs such as Plan B, RU486, and gardasil. Historically, conservatives have always attacked any technology designed or used to support sexual expression. But getting this resistance from progressives who care about women is new.
So with Flibanserin’s defeat, I don’t want to hear about the “patriarchal drug companies” who are “willing to develop a drug to help men, but cruelly withhold one from women.”
I share Marty Klein’s surprise at seeing progressives who care about women lining up with the sexual hysterics against a potentially-helpful sexual technology. It may not be very good technology, and it’s clearly not for everyone, but shouldn’t the decision whether to use it be between — to use a phrase that may have certain resonances — a woman and her doctor?
Let’s go back to Emily Nagoski for a second. Right after those two rhetorical questions I quoted above, she wrote:
If you’ve experienced a big ol’ drop in your desire for sex and you want your desire for sex to come back, talk to a sex therapist. Sex therapy helps people.
Sounds plausible to me. Sounds sensible. Of course, I know nothing about sex therapy; for all I know it could consist of naked tarot card readings conducted by a talking horse. But presumably it’s respectable stuff that works, because Emily’s smart and knows about this stuff and I trust her opinion and she offers it up right after casting aspersions at a drug that she says only works maybe 15% of the time. So sex therapy must be better than that, I guess.
On CNN they call what I’m doing now the battle of the experts, because I’m shoving the camera back in Marty Klein’s face. He doesn’t get specific, but he doesn’t sound quite as sanguine:
And complaints that the drug would create unrealistic expectations in consumers–doesn’t sex therapy do that, too? Most people don’t realize we do so poorly enhancing our customers’ sexual desire. A typical outcome is that people acquire better communication skills–not more reliable desire.
Fortunately for sex therapists (and the public), no one’s trying to prevent the public from getting access to us. Or demanding data on the effectiveness of our treatments. If people saw our numbers, I don’t think the public would ever trust us again.
And we cost more than a pill–sometimes with side effects that are just as complicated.
Shorter URL for sharing: https://www.erosblog.com/?p=5189
I’ve got about 1600 words’ worth of blog response to Marty’s article, but alas I’m away at a conference for the next three days, so it’ll be some time before I can finish it, probably.
The short version is: much of what he suggests are consequences of the New View’s work around flibby are unsubstantiated, as far as I’m aware, and I think he misunderstands what folks like me mean when we say that there won’t be a medication for women’s desire.
(For more info, see Camille Paglia’s NYT Op Ed from yesterday.)
He’s right that Tx doesn’t increase desire per se. It does, however, improve communication, satisfaction, and orgasm. It helps people embrace their sexuality as it is rather than trying to make it how a person THINKS it should be. Which is not nothing, and it’s what I mean when I say Tx helps people.
Hotel buffet business lunch calls. *sigh*
Stay tuned.
I haven’t read much about this debate, but I thought I’d point out that while 15% might see a benefit in studies, I imagine that even more people (maybe even double that) would benefit equally from the placebo effect. Of course this is true of whatever course of treatment you might try, but to have a drug available seems like it would put the issue on the table for many women who otherwise might not be aware they could aspire to a higher level of desire.
Maybe I am weird to be wound up over placebos. But they cause real results, and it isn’t something you can ask your doctor for. To get the effect though, you do have to do something thinking it could work.
Allow me to make a (purely) logical point about anarchism. It may have some relevance to this issue.
1. Put as generally as possibly, an anarchist might define the anarchist position as the prima facie belief that all centralization of power is to be resisted.
2. An anarchist might identify different loci of power, different nodes of centralized power within a society. Those loci of power might occasionally be in conflict.
In this instance we might view one locus of power as the pharmaceutical companies that, in collusion with aspects of the medical establishment, define “disorder,” use hoards of economic resources to develop profitable “solutions” for those “disorders,” and then use hoards of further resources to convince the rest of us to interpret our present condition as a disorder to be cured by their profitable solutions. We might view their “marketing” as a form of illegitimate communication, because it is not only structurally a monologue and not a dialogue, but in reality they are not aiming to communicate with us. They are explicitly aiming to use their position of relative strength to manipulate us. Yes – we can and should resist, making up our own minds. But the reason their manipulation is effective (and they know it is) is because they have the balance of power vis-a-vis the rest of us, considered collectively.
The other locus of power is the federal government, and its capacity to regulate the goods and services available for our consumption. Presumably I don’t need to attempt to motivate why you should view the federal government as a prima facie illegitimate locus of power.
3. Recognizing these facts we draw the conclusion: we can’t rely on anarchist principle to decide where we want to put our efforts in conflicts between illegitimate loci of power. That’s not a matter of principle, it’s a matter of cost-benefit analysis, tactics, and strategy.
Now if you anarchist principles go no further than “leave people alone”, without an analysis of where power is concentrated in your society, you may be inadvertently siding with one loci of power over others. Concentrations of economic power are constantly attempting to undermine governmental sources of power. As anarchists I believe we should be thinking about how to disassemble all of them, or at least attenuate their concentration. Where that is possible, we would like to see these loci of power neutralize each other. Whether and how they do is a difficult question.
Great blog – by the way.
thanks,
Arthur
Let’s face it, there is a certain element on the progressive side of things that thinks low desire is a feature, not a bug.
I’m glad Big Pharma didn’t win this battle.
Antidepressants used to be prescribed as a supplement to counseling; a last resort measure to be employed only when all other treatment options have been exhausted. And that’s the way it should have stayed. Antidepressants are very serious medication that can cause very serious side effects. It’s dangerous to hand them like candy.
Fast forward a few decades, and now all one has to do is go to a GP and say, “Hey doc, I feel sad, can I get something for it?”, and they walk out with a prescription for the latest antidepressant being advertised on TV. There is no recommendation to seek out counseling. No doctor takes the time anymore to find out if the patient actually has a medical condition that NEEDS an antidepressant. The patient could have very well seen immense improvement just from changing their diet, exercising more, and letting time heal their wounds.
Don’t scoff at this. When my mother died, my dad went to his doctor two days after her death and asked for prescription Zoloft because “he was sad that his spouse died”. The idiot doctor actually prescribed it! Who wouldn’t feel depressed in that situation?!? Why is medication that changes your brain chemistry being prescribed to treat a non-medical situation?
I can’t help but fear that allowing a pill with very dubious claims to increasing female sexual desire will end up often being prescribed in situations where it is clearly not necessary.
“You don’t like sex because your husband sucks in bed and can’t find the clit? Clearly it’s a mental problem in your head–here’s a pill to help you out”
“You don’t feel horny because you’re putting in 60 hour work weeks and have 3 kids to take care of? Obviously you need an antidepressant to make you horny again”
“Your boyfriend is 500 lbs. overweight, hasn’t showered in a month, and you don’t want to fuck him? Obvious mental disorder! Here’s a pill”
etc.
There won’t be any doctor recommendations of lifestyle changes or therapy for these women. It’ll just be a quick prescription handed out after a few minutes of chatter about not feeling horny. And then in the near future, women will believe that they need a pill every time they’ve hit a dry slump much like people will believe that they need an antidepressant every time they are going through a rough patch in life.
No thanks.
Emily, I look forward to seeing what you’ll have to say when you get the time, I know how frustrating it is to want to blog something but have other obligations in the way.
Meanwhile, I’m linking the Paglia article here as a convenience for anybody who hasn’t seen it yet. It doesn’t shed much light for me, but it’s full of the tasty poetic cultural castings for which she is so famous.
Re:Anon
So are you saying that Antidepressants should be banned for everyone because some people who use them could benefit from therapy or other treatments? And the risks of adverse effects on these people aren’t worth the benefits to others? If so, I am curious exactly how you would quantify that.
When someone is stabbed, would you recommend they forgo stitches in favor of conflict resolution classes? Because it is natural that you should bleed and scar in that situation, and stitches is only treating the symptom.
Emotional pain changes your brain chemistry too you know.
If my relationship was being threatened by a situation that Flibanserin (or antidepressants) could help, I would hope that someone else’s squeamishness over whether my brain chemistry arose naturally or artificially would not keep me from a solution, especially if I HAD tried everything else I could think of.
Oh and did the Zoloft help your Dad feel better?
Yup, if I were a dictator, I’d outright ban antidepressants. I have seen so many depressed and troubled family and friends turn into miserable, zombie-like, emotionless husks of what they once were that I have a very hard time believing that they do any good at all. My husband even lost a teenage cousin who killed himself within a few weeks of starting Paxil (this was long before the FDA started mandating black box warnings about increased risk of suicide in teens).
It makes me angry to tears just to think about how many lives have been ruined and lost by pharmaceutical companies who have pushed their drugs through approval by using shoddy “scientific studies” (I use that term loosely), bribing the FDA, or marketing drugs for uses that were never approved or even scientifically studied (i.e. AstraZeneca telling doctors that Seroquel could treat everything from ADHD and bipolar even though they never studied the medication’s effects on those disorders!). And I really can’t help but see Flibanserin as more of the same: another half-assed attempt to push another medication on the unsuspecting public in order to recover the substantial amount of money that was lost in trying to develop yet another profitable antidepressant. Only this time the pharmaceutical company can use the “OMG you’re SEXIST if you don’t approve this” line to push their shitty product through the FDA (it might not have been approved now, but give it time and they’ll try again).
So, yes, ban them all. Good riddance.
Call that argument irrational, biased, emotional, hypocritical, angry, fallacious, and every other negative adjective in the dictionary, but that’s my honest and very low opinion of the pharmaceutical industry. Don’t really care if it wins me points with the internet crowd or not.
Anon, all that misses the point that you seem awfully comfortable making decisions about other people’s bodies and other people’s health. That’s pretty scary to me, and I don’t see how you can hope to justify it on any moral or ethical basis.
Bacchus, I’m not trying to justify it on any moral or ethical basis, especially since I believe morals and ethics are extremely subjective and pointless to argue. What scares ME is that the pharmaceutical industry has lied to, deceived, and endangered the public for decades now, and yet people still believe that taking their psychotropic pills will somehow make all of their problems mental health problems magically disappear. It doesn’t work like that and it never has.
Bacchus, thanks for laying out the case supporting my discomfort with the opposition to fib so clearly. There’s science and good thought on all sides of this one, of course (“Makes the war god seem no special dunce/For always fighting on both sides at once”), but the opposition also seems to have a rigidly political cast to it that seems to make it nonnegotiable. It’s sad when the Good Guys (passionate, intelligent, informed feminist women) seem to run so badly off-track.
Fortunately, I think, events will almost certainly overtake this issue in the next decade — asserting that something you disapprove of is also impossible has an awfully, awfully poor track record — computers, human flight, ‘real’ aphrodisiacs . . .
‘Naked tarot card readings conducted by a talking horse’ – wish I’d written that!
It’s a funny thing, desire. Some naturally have bags of it, others little or none. I’ve known both sides. I used to have a high sex drive, numerous partners and a lot of kinky, raunchy sex. Three years ago, I copped a brain injury which pretty much destroyed my libido. It doesn’t worry me, I have no desire for sex so I don’t do it. It’s made life simpler, especially since age and lifestyle were starting to affect my performance.
Having already enjoyed a rich and full sex life may have made it easier to come to terms with the loss of my libido.
errr…
Am I wrong, or won’t Europe likely have access to this drug? (…and probably Mexico…)
I mean, it’s my opinion that this country’s Puritanical roots likely have more to do with Flibanserin’s struggle for acceptance than the fact that it may, or may not, be dangerous, or may, or may not, be effective. When was the last time THOSE factors stopped a drug’s approval in this country?
My favorite/current “pet peeve” drug ad, is for a medication called AciPhex (…apparently roughly pronounced: “ass-effects”), marketed for gastroesophageal reflux disease (GERD, acid reflux, “heartburn”, indigestion, etc.). Because of the way the voice over narrator pronounced its non-generic name, I nearly rolled on the floor laughing when they announced possible side effects such as “diarrhea” or “constipation”…
In fact, I hadn’t had so much fun since they announced (over the radio) that natural diet proponent Euell Gibbons had just died of apparent “natural” causes (Some time later, further elucidation ruled the death specifically the result of a ruptured aortic aneurysm…) Normally, I don’t laugh at people’s death notices, but his recent television commercial for a popular cereal featured Gibbons asking viewers, “Ever eat a pine tree? Many parts are edible.” Next he recommended eating this particular breakfast cereal over eating pine trees as its taste reminded him of “wild hickory nuts”. When they announced his death, I thought, “Well, no wonder!…”
Anyway, my point is that many of today’s new pharmaceuticals have side effects that to me sound horrendously worse than the problem they are alleging to treat.
Speaking as someone who’s currently on antidepressants for long-term clinical depression, I just can’t see what’s wrong with this drug.
Chronic, persistent low mood that’s ruining your life because you want a higher mood? Take antidepressants, along with your counselling, for a chance of improvement.
Chronic, persistent low sex drive that’s ruining your life because you want a higher sex drive? Take Flibanserin, along with your counselling, for a chance of improvement.
Maybe it’s different here in the UK, but I’m pretty certain that they wouldn’t prescribe these to someone who just felt a bit disinterested in sex after a long day at work.
From personal experience, my antidepressants have completely flattened my sex drive, taking away a very meaningful source of pleasure and relief in my life, and causing me more than a little distress. I and my partner have tried everything to bring it back, including counselling, so chemical which could make it easier to get started would be an absolute godsend.
[Dob, try again. This comment was not civil enough to meet ErosBlog editorial standards. Sorry — Bacchus.]
anon:
It worked that way for me… Twice. I probably wouldn’t be alive today. I guess that is anecdotal, but I was on 2 antidepressants at different times for about a year each. Once in college and then again several years later about 6 months after my mother died. Both times I was suicidally depressed and unable to function at a basic level. I had no support and no money in either case. After I started taking the pills all my problems melted away within a month or 2 and I never had any side effects at all, not physically or related to my moods. And I know several others for whom antidepressants have been equally if not even more beneficial and literally life saving.
I hope this is encouraging to you to be a little more hopeful about the potentials of psychotropic drugs. At least there is potential to really and truly help people. We are not doomed to the vagaries of our chemistry. I am proof! :D
For that matter, when my birth control negatively affected my libido, I worked with my doctor to find a different option that was better for me. Everyone has to decide what to put up with when it comes to drugs and their effects. What might not be acceptable normally might be far preferable to an untreated state. At least until a better solution can be implemented… One arm is better than none at all.
I am sorry that your experiences with these drugs have been so unhappy, but I hope as a society we can figure out a way to let this amazing technology be of utmost benefit without unnecessary sacrifice.
I’m pleasantly surprised the FDA declined to approve this particular concoction at this time. Perhaps there is a need for a medicinal component in the solution, but this offering fails to meet reasonable acceptance criteria. Every new medication carries unknown risks – remember thalidomide.
Let’s remember the history behind this cocktail. As an experimental antidepressant, some users noted an increase in sexual desire. The chemists adjusted the formula and targeted the increased desire effect. The results of the current studies fail to show a true merit, even after the ‘adjustment’. Other countries will likely approve the drug and allow their citizens to be the test bed. We can learn about its value (or hazard) through their experience. If further trials demonstrate a reasonable merit, the FDA can reconsider.
FDA disapproval means the companies are motivated to produce a more effective remedy. Perhaps that motivation is a good thing and it would be weakened by approval of the current offering.
i’ve been reading this blog for a long time, but this is the first time i’ve commented.
here is my objection to “fibby” or whatever the cute name is for it. during the news coverage leading to the FDA advisory board decision, one of the newscasters threw out the (i’m assuming Pharma provided) stat that “as many as 50% of women have low desire.” really? 50% of women have a clinically significant lack of desire. as compared to what? their own previous level of desire? answers on a standardized questionaire about the amount of sex they’re having? or as compared to the amount of desire they think they’re *supposed* to have because every time they turn around there’s an ad or a “reality tv show” or a something depicting impossibly beautiful people having lots of sex?
to my mind, any disorder that “up to 50%” of any population has isn’t actually a disorder, it’s just a variation from the norm.
i was also troubled by the consistent ananlysis of this medicine as akin to Viagra. when i found out it was actually an antidepressant in the SSRI family, my first thought was “wtf?” SSRIs tend to decrease sexual desire, it’s one of the biggest reasons people stop taking them. the whole thing felt shady and quickly thrown together to me. and i have a buggaboo about pathologizing deviations from the norm.
so to further confuse things, let me take both sides of the “antidepressants suck/no they don’t” debate.
yes, antidepressants are major medications, with lots of side effects and shouldn’t be taken lightly. whoever gave Anon’s dad a scrip for Zoloft for a normal grief reaction was a moron. and to Laura: unfortunately, i think yes, over here it’s very different, and it’s highly likely that an overworked primary care doc will not take the time to do a real psych assessment before prescribing antidepressants.
psycho-pharm has a not very long, but often sordid history, and an internist friend of my said that psych meds were the second most toxic formulary he’d ever had to deal with (the Most toxic being oncology, chemotherapy meds. which, you know, are designed to kill stuff). i think it’s a good thing to be wary about a new antidepressant, especially if the jury is out on whether the disorder being treated actually exists (and i’ll admit to not knowing what the consensus is on hypoactive sexual desire disorder).
otoh, contra Anon, psych meds do work. not perfectly and not for everyone. and there is alot more art than science to finding out which med works with which person. but i’ve seen too many people debilitated by depression, or so manic they can’t stop talking (literally), or so distraught over delusions and hallucinations that they hurt themselves trying to defend themselves get Better with psych meds to think that they don’t work. if you’ve had bad experiences then it’s probably hard to believe.
so, i know this comment is forever long, so Bacchus, edit if necessary.
thanks
E
It’s well known that it’s very expensive to bring a new drug to market through all the trial and development phases required to obtain FDA approval. Drug companies only spend this kind of money if they’re sure there is a large enough market to make their investment back, plus profit. I can’t imagine that due diligence was not done in researching the potential customer base. Therefore, I assume there are a lot of women who would be willing to pay for this drug.
It should not surprise anyone that progressive feminists celebrate taking away choices from other women because they might want something for the wrong reasons. Camille Paglia has written about this unlovely aspect of the women’s movement at length. From personal experience, I think taking antidepressants is a terrible idea, so I don’t do it. Were this drug available, I wouldn’t use it. I didn’t need any sex-positive feminist lecturing me as though I were 12 to come to that conclusion. So I’m with Bacchus on this one.
Could I point everyone to Emily Nagoski’s followup post, which I believe explained the issue fairly well? http://enagoski...arty/
“SOME women have flatlining desire and are miserable because of it and won’t feel “treated’ until their desire level reaches some tolerable threshold (a threshold determined not by any clinical or medical standards but by sociocultural standards — no less real, but it’s important to note), and I wish there were a treatment for that. There isn’t one (I doubt there will ever be a medical one), and that sucks.”
…
“this “hysteria” is about a corporation making a profit by lying to women, telling them they’re broken and need to be fixed with a drug”
In women, desire and arousal are not strongly linked. You can do things about blood flow and physical arousal which don’t have any effect on desire for sex. But can you do anything about desire and sexual satisfaction with drugs? I don’t believe that has been shown clearly by the studies done to date, and until it is _proven_ I think marketing the drug is just monetising women’s sexual insecurities.
Also see a thoughtful and fairly objective piece in the Guardian :
http://www.guar...anies
I really think that only those of us, like me, with supremely low sex drive have the right to decide if a pill would be demeaning, or somehow offensive. I would jump at even a %5 chance of increasing my drive, at least for the moment while a lot of un-removable stressors are lowering it.